Now that you have finished reading Dorian Gray, you're ready for a scintillating, online discussion. Please share your thoughts about one or more of the following questions:
1. Who is most to blame for the tragedy of Dorian Gray--Lord Henry, Basil Hallward, or Dorian himself?
2. Could Dorian Gray be considered a tragic hero according to the classical definition? Why or why not?
3. What is the relationship between art and morality? Should art be moral? Should it serve some social good? Should the government have the right to censure works of art that it finds morally objectionable?
4. What symbolism is embedded in the final scene? What are some of the ironies it captures? Does it form effective closure to the book?
5. What do you think of the representation of women in the novel?
6. Is Oscar Wilde a better playwright, novelist, or poet?
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27 comments:
1. Although it seems like each person is to blame, I think Dorian is the person to blame the most. Dorian allows himself to be susceptible to other people because of his naivety towards the world as well as relationships. I'm not sure if Dorian would be stable if he didn't meet Lord Henry because the picture still would have been painted. Ultimately, since Dorian is a character of beauty, he would realize it would not last forever.
2. Dorian could be a tragic hero because in the begining of the novel, he is in such a high position with his popularity, money, and beauty, that everything is reflected as being perfect. However, when he tried to secure his beauty for the rest of his life, Dorian continued to run into more and more problems (such as Sibyl, Basil, James). These problems were such a big deal because Dorian was afraid these occurences would try to hurt his beauty whereas his inner beauty was shone as the reality.
3. Art should not have to be moral because it is expression. Art is almost viewed as an opinion as it can be viewed in different ways. Also, people can choose whether or not to look at the art (for the most part) because that is a freedom of being human. Because it is expression, there does not have to be a concrete good for society because as long as it satisfies the artist, it is art and that's what is important. The government should make sure to allow the art to be shown, but should consider where the art is displayed in consideration for other people in society.
4. When Dorian stabs the picture and kills himself instead, Wilde is trying to illuminate how beauty is eternal and cannot be destroyed. However, it's ironic how the ugliness comes back to Dorian in the end and how the thing Dorian was running away from was what he ended up as. It is the an effective closure because it keeps the art alive as well as restoring Dorian to his original self.
5. I think that the women are shown as flirts, sexual tools, and not really respected in the novel.
6. Oscar Wilde is a better playwright because he can use both actions, as well as dialogue to express his ideas and to satarize society.
1) I agree with Kjerstin when she states that Dorian holds the most blame. Although Lord Henry presents this new lifesyle to Dorian, it is Dorian who allows himself to be influenced and live by these new ideas.
3) Art is an expression and some immoral ideas need to be expressed and revealed to others. However some people can be completely against immoral expression, but they can also while disgusted with the piece can miss the symbolism or meaning behind it. Some pieces that could create controversy should be placed where people who want to see it can but those who don't do not have to look at it. I think that some art can be very immoral and I would prefer not to look at it but that could be the artists goal, to repulse people and express something not usually expressed.
2. Although I think each of the main characters contributed to Dorian's corruption, I agree that Dorian is the most at fault. Lord Henry introduced Dorian to the aesthetic lifestlye, and whether he practiced them, Lord Henry believed in them; however, Lord Henry doesn't lose his head and act immorally. Dorian allows his vanity and obsession with pleasure to drive his actions. If Dorian had had a stronger character he may have been able to resist the pull of a life of pleasure, ultimately saving his soul and the destroyed lives of those hurt or influenced.
6. I agree with Kjerstin, Oscar Wilde is a far better playwright than novelist. The form of play keeps Wilde from going on and on with his description, which I consider a plus.
Also just another thing I was wondering...
This novel reminded me a lot of The Loved One in that I did not connect with any of the characters. Do you think that Wilde wrote the characters that way or was it mere coincidence?
Emily, there are several similarities between The Loved One and Dorian Gray. However, Oscar Wilde was dead by the time Evelyn Waugh wrote his novel. Nonetheless, both authors create nihilistic characters and unconventional views toward Art.
1. I agree with Kjerstin that Dorian himself is most to blame for his own tragedy. I think he needed a character like Lord Henry to spark his downfall, but he had the initial tendency all by himself and after all he was the one who made the pact with the devil.
6. I also agree that Oscar Wilde was a better playwright than a novelist or poet. I think that his witty style, although it still appears in Dorian Gray, shows through most clearly in the dialogue of plays. His writing style does not fit a novel as well as a play because he excels in wit and it is harder to catch how witty he is in the middle of a novel.
1. Basically summing up what others have said... Although Lord Henry was must influential to Dorian, it ultimately was his own choice and free will to act as he did. Like Kjerstin said, he allowed himself to susceptible. At the end of the day, however, he chose his own fate and actions. He was a victim to beauty and vanity, but that was also his own will. Many played parts in the downfall of the man (such as Basil for depicting his beauty and Lord Henry for supporting his ego and vanity), but Dorian chose to listen to them with his own free will. There is no one to blame for the tragedy for Dorian Gray, except Dorian Gray.
3. I think we first have to establish what art is. I think that if we were to ask Dorian as he sat in the attic holding the knife about the stab his portrait, I'm not so sure he'd agree that it was art. Clearly Basil thought it was, he almost drove himself crazy thinking about it, but I highly doubt Dorian thought those same thoughts up in the final scene. With that being said, I don't think art needs to be moral; I think it needs to provoke emotion. It must be an outlet that reflects some aspect of humanity, whatever that entails. Just because it's not art to someone, doesn't mean another person feels the same way. For example, I absolutely despise the blue bronco with the crazy laser eyes at DIA. I think it's the most unattractive and, frankly, frightening thing I've seen. I sincerely wish someone would take that thing down so our guests don't look at it on their way into our city. It's not immoral, I just can't stand it. But do I think it's art? Absolutely. It's provoking an emotion, and I'm sure it's a different emotion for everyone. I would like art to serve social good, but I don't think it needs to.
1. And just to add quickly to the first question, I really don't think Dorian is the most to blame. I actually think quite the opposite. I think he was a pawn for Henry and simply an individual who did not have a strong enough soul to walk away from the life that was created in front of him. I don't deny that he was the one who ultimately killed himself, but I don't think it's fair to blame him. Henry knew what he was doing, Basil was the overbearing parent that also nudged him towards the edge, and his society relentlessly treated him on an incredibly shallow level. I'm not blaming any one of them either, but I don't think we can justify that the blame should be on Dorian. It was such a combination of events and influences and he simply didn't have the courage and strength to walk away.I think that it was his character trait to be weak and pretty much doomed from the very beginning. The rest of the novel is, like Ferrill says, how the author reaches that conclusion. So do I think he's a tragic hero? Sort of. He didn't have any real heroic qualities but I do think his fate was blatantly determined from the first time Basil mentions him to Henry.
4. While Dorian is contemplating stabbing his portrait, his thoughts reveal that “[The picture] had been like a conscience to him” (Wilde 192). I think that the symbolism in the last scene lies in the fact that Dorian tries to destroy the painting to rid himself of the memories of his sinful deeds, and thus attempts to kill his conscience. The burden of Basil’s death weighs on his heart, and he even tries to dull his senses with opium to escape the reality of his depravity; Dorian feels that the only solution is to destroy the object that exemplifies his flaws and makes him feel remorse. It is ironic that Dorian’s attempt to kill his conscience results in his own death. Perhaps Wilde is trying to state that one cannot escape the consequences of an immoral life, for without a conscience, Dorian would have been free to live as hedonistically as before without the burden of guilt.
The ending forms effective closure for the book because the picture exemplifies what Dorian is—a lost man intoxicated by his own beauty, a man led astray by Lord Henry’s ideologies and the pleasures of the world. When Dorian stabs the picture, he stabs his soul and kills the very essence of his life. Dorian’s life was built on the pursuit of sin; therefore when he tries to eradicate the sin staining his life, he perishes with it.
3. Art is the one place in which the creator doesn't have to be moral. I think that's the basis of Lord Henry's life- saying outrageous things but never having to "pay" for them because they are considered art. Many times, the artist deliberately creates grotesque and immoral creations because it is simply a topic that must be brought up, and that is the only way to appropriately convey it. I really like what Mack said, particularly about not necessarily having to enjoy it. The important part is allowing it to continue. Governmental control of art seems to me an oxymoron in and of itself. Art exists to provoke emotion as Martha said, so governmental control of emotion would be too much of a 1984 or Brave New World situation. I think it's particularly interesting to read Dorian, a book concerned entirely with free and artistic expression, followed directly by a book of entire control. I am curious to know what Dorian Gray would do under stricter governmental control, but not necessarily brainwashing. Would it propel him to rebel further? Would he conform?
Christa, I really like how you worded your thoughts about the end of the novel! I know I was gone on the day we discussed Dorian in class, but one thing I know that I mentioned to Mrs. Ferrill was how I thought the ending could be interpreted several different ways.
First, we could assume that by stabbing his portrait, Dorian unknowingly kills himself because his soul and his portrait were one in the same, and that he did not know that this would happen, prior to his death. This interpretation makes it seem as though Dorian stabbed his picture in vain, desperately trying free himself from the portrait rather than attempting to make up for his sins.
We could also guess that Dorian stabs his portrait and understands that by doing so, he would also be killing himself. Maybe this is the reason he chose not to do anything about the portrait earlier on in the story.
Also, what if Dorian didn't stab the picture at all? Even though Wilde writes that Dorian stabs the portrait, maybe he meant that Dorian really just stabs himself. Because Dorian's soul and the picture have become the same thing, Wilde could have written that Dorian stabs the 'portrait' when really he stabs 'himself'. (I hope that makes sense; I didn't really know how I should have worded it) This would lead me to think that Dorian's death was an act of pure suicide, not an act of rebellion or vanity. If he really did stab himself, I think it would have probably been because he realized that he had ruined his own life beyond repair (or so he thought).
Either way, I like thinking that Oscar Wilde made the ending purposely ambiguous and mysterious. I think that because the ending of the novel can be viewed in so many different ways, it still keeps the reader wondering about Dorian, even at the conclusion: was he giving up on life? Was he refusing to accept the responsibilities that would come with repairing his mangled life? Was he buying into Henry's belief in finding 'new experiences' and was Dorian merely approaching suicide as a 'new sensation'?
Also, in response to the first question Mrs. Ferrill posted, I agree with Kjerstin and most of everybody else who has posted on here that Dorian is most to blame for his tragic life. I do not think he was soul-less or completely naive. There are many examples throughout the novel that suggest that Dorian experienced moments of guilt and regret. If he was truly Lord Henry's pawn and only did what Lord Henry told him to do, I do not think Dorian would have continued to have these feelings and second guess Lord Henry. Today, there are negative influences in all of our lives. But ultimately, we are the only ones responsible for our own actions; we can choose to cave in and do what others tell us is right, or we can choose to do what we believe is right. I think deep down, Dorian recognized that he was living a dark and dangerous lifestyle, even if it was his vanity about the picture that helped him realize this. Lord Henry and Basil definitely aided in Dorian's downfall, but I believe Dorian is the most to blame for his own demise.
I am really sorry for writing so much, but am I the only one who liked Dorian better than Earnest? I think I might be…
Martha- I found your comments about blame and Dorian very intruiging. So are you saying then that people don't have control over their own souls and personalities? Just curious.
And Annika- was it in Gov or in this class that we discussed the man making statues and smearing them with feces, and the public was enraged but the artist simply defended himself on the basis of "this is ART." When do you think art stops being art? I personally think feces are a bit ridiculous, but I am in no way an artist either.
I like what Martha said about art: "it needs to provoke emotion." I guess, in that case, the feces would do it.
And Madison... I think you might be... but I don't judge! :)
p.s. #2 has barely been touched upon but I think Dorian has at least the tragic flaw of vulnerability and susceptibility to others and their ideas, particularly Lord Henry. Wasn't part of being a tragic hero being likeable to the reader, though, so that we feel for the character when their flaw creates the tragedy. Does anyone actually feel sorry for Dorian? I didn't. But that may not be saying much, I don't know.
1. I agree with a few of the others that Dorian is to blame. I feel that so many times in this culture we are always looking for others to blame and we are willing to point the finger and judge everyone else but will not look at ourselves. Yes, Lord Henry had a strong influence on him, but his actions were his own and he was responsible for all the ways in which he hurt, ruined, or murdered others.
4. I think it is strange that although in the final page Wilde talks about how Dorian feels regret and views the painting itself as his conscience revealed in an external form, he reacts to it in the pattern that he lived his life. By responding to his tainted soul in the same hedonistic and self-consumed way that caused his soul to be corrumpted in the first place, he destroys both himself and his soul in the process. The ending implies that although Dorian may have felt a measure of remorse for his life's faults, he never really understood the truth of either regret or reform. Instead, he dealt with the situation parallel to his life, which produced the opposite effect of what he hoped.Do you think Dorian did this in ignorance and did he really realize his faults? In that case should he be pitied or blamed for something he didn't understand? Did Dorian know what would happen to both him and the picture?
1. I really think that Lord Henry is to blame. Although, each character has the potential to stop the end result, it is impossible without the influence of Lord Henry. Moreover, the effects of the others seem to occur in a much less overt manner. Lord Henry is aware of his actions and continues even when he knows, that there are potential negative consequences.
6. I think Wilde is best as a playwright. This is simply because I enjoyed The Importance of Being Earnest the best of all the Wilde we read. I enjoyed the beginning of Dorian but the later chapters were too depressing for my liking.
1. I think that Dorian is ultimately to blame for his own tragedy. The world is filled with evil people with evil ideas like Lord Henry, but there isn't too much that anyone can do about it. Dorian was young and impressionable, but he was able to see the damage that he was causing to himself through his portrait. However, Dorian decided to continue to make the bad choices that eventually led to his own demise.
3. I don't think its actually possible for art to be separate from morality, or at least what morality is to the artist. Art, whether the artist means it to or not, does show the artist because it is his representation of a subject from his own point of view that no one else can truly understand. Therefore, his ideas and own set of values are transmitted through his art intentionally or unintentionally.
5. Oscar Wilde does leave women out of much of this novel, but when they do become a part of it, he seems to describe them as art and things to be of beauty and nothing else. They are characters without much depth, but as soon as Sybil does show some depth, Dorian no longer wants her and she is killed off from the story line. I don't know that Wilde himself through of women as mindless, stationary objects in life, but they definitely appear to be in his writing.
6) I think Wilde is definitely a better playwright, or at least not as bad of a playwright as he is a poet and a novelist.
As a novelist, Wilde spends far too much time working to please himself and essentially stroke his own artistic ego by pandering to his own poorly developed philosophical beliefs. I think Dorian Gray had definite potential, but the writing was far too aesthetic. He allowed himself to wander and ramble, which could have been ok. I will admit that he weaves his words together with immense talent. But he simply allowed it to carry on too much. More importantly, he didn't use his impressive command of the English language to illuminate any important truths or provoke serious thought within the reader or dialogue in society, he prattled on about the same few silly ideas without ever really pausing to develop them or examine them.
I also agree with Adam that the characters and the setting of the book were in general disgusting. To see an upper class of people spend their lives on such senseless trivialities and be conscious of the working class that existed at the same time was somewhat sickening. Wilde could have used this feeling to help convey a message, but (possibly due to his artistic promise) he failed to develop it at all.
Wilde's poetry was also profoundly unimpressive. Although he can make interesting phrases and sayings, he simply does not weave them together in a fashion that is sufficiently cohesive to really paint a vivid emotional picture and/or convey a point. It didn't have a good flow or rhythm, and the way it was set up did not enhance the content of the poem but in fact detracted from it by being unnecessarily halting. His poetry is decent, but not particularly noteworthy.
I am reticent to say that I liked Earnest, but I certainly was impressed at how not lame it was. That is, it stood the test of time much better than most similar work from that period of time. Wilde's wit was well suited to writing dialogue. The quick exchanges of a play prevented him from going of on senseless and self-indulgent aesthetic tangents. He was able to incorporate his famously witty lines and do so without breaking the natural flow of dialogue. His characters fit stereotypes well enough to be humorous but they were not overdone to the point that they were simply irritating.
Essentially, the play I have read by Wilde is not bad, whereas the poetry was decidedly unimpressive and his novel had potential but ultimately failed. The format of a play was best suited to him because it demanded that he focus his wit and keep things concise without cluttering the experience with his own infantile philosophical views.
1. Both Lord Henry and Basil share a part in the destruction of Dorian Gray. Lord Henry exposes Dorian's innocent character to the realities of the world. Although many of Lord Henry's statements are true, he introduces Dorian to potential conflict and encourages Dorian's individual thoughts to change his outlook on life. Furthermore, Lord Henry reveals his comments to Dorian in an overwhelming manner, not gradually introducing Dorian into the society. Therefore, Dorian experiments somewhat with the Lord Henry's revelations. Basil should be blamed for the tragedy, as well, but on the opposite spectrum from Lord Henry. Basil shelters Dorian and idolizes him as perfection. This treatment combined with Lord Henry's influence create a path towards Dorian's death.
2. Dorian could be considered a tragic hero because of the transformation in his character from the beginning of the novel to the end. However, his tragic flaw seems to be simply the influence of others around him which leads to his death.
3. In the novel, the painting of Dorian Gray reflects his soul, and therefore connects to morality because of its depiction of Dorian's acts. Art should not necessarily be moral, however, immoral artwork can influence those who are not the artist. Art is a form of expression and should not be contained within the framework of morality.
I think that Dorian Gray could be considered a tragic hero because he has one specific flaw: vanity. His obsession with how other people view him takes over, especially in the beginning when he is so influenced by Lord Henry's opinion. This one flaw has dragged him down from the start because it caused him to make his wish and it caused him to destroy the painting.
I definitely don't think art should have to be moral. Art is about emotion and soul and it shouldn't have limits (granted that the 'art' doesn't physically hurt anybody). The government should not have the right to censure art because art is a release and freedom of expression.
1. I think Dorian is probably most responsible for his own downfall. No matter how Lord Henry or Basil influenced him, Dorian was the one who made the wish and caused all the other events to play out in the way they did (i.e. killing Basil).
2. Dorian could definitely be considered a tragic hero since he did start out with a good life and ultimately ended up dead. He also had the elements of a tragic hero, such as his tragic flaw: vanity.
3. Art itself is not and cannot be moral. It is inanimate. However, it does reflect the moral values of the artist that created it. And the government should not have the right to do anything about an artist's freedom of speech. Or so says the Constitution.
6. Personally, I think Oscar Wilde is a far better playwright than anything else. I have not read much of his poetry, but I think he is an awful novelist. His descriptions of characters and settings are always drawn out and decadent, and I find that it does not hold my attention. However, he writes fast-paced and engaging dialogue, which is what makes him a good playwright.
1. Lord Henry is most to blame. Dorian was vain, beautiful,innocent, and just downright vulnerable when Lord Henry first met him and introduced him to his newfound hedonism. Dorian was merely thrown into a lifestyle that he embraced fully without questioning or giving thought to.Throughout the novel Dorian just does as Lord Henry says. And by the time he does try to purify himself it is too late and yet Lord Henry comes out of the whole novel without a scratch, only old age to loath. Dorian took Lord Henry's ideals to extremes and it destroys him but Dorian is basically blind to it the entire time while Lord Henry sits by intrigued by his specimen.
2.Hecks no Dorian is not a tragic hero by definition. I'll give it to the beautiful son of a gun he almost made it with Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, and Macbeth but he never takes note of the tragic flaw that causes his downfall. He never sees that the lifestyle he lives, that listless pursuit of pleasure and beauty is why he falls. He hates seeing the ugliness of his own soul as portrayed by his portrait. His tragic flaw causes his downfall, but his downfall ends with his death and there is no more thought after that so there is no time to recognize his own tragic flaw.One could say that he did so when he begins to "be good" again, but then why does he go seek out that portrait for the last time in the first place? Because he wanted to see a change, he hungered for the new sensation of a newfound purity, the pleasure of his own innocence. Thus he never truly took note of his own tragic flaw and is not a tragic hero by definition.
I think that even though Henry was the one that put the ideas in Dorian's head that would put him to his tragic end I think that most of the blame for this should be placed on Dorian and Basil. Yes Henry gave Dorian the ideas but if Dorian had been a stronger person he would not have been so willing to give into these ideas and live the way Henry told him to. Even after Dorian saw the changes in the painting and in himself after Sibyl died he still did nothing to change his ways, not until the very end and even then he was doing it to escape the bad so he could be happy, I don't think he was really doing it to be good for the world, just to be good for himself. Basil had the biggest role in the tragedy of Dorian Grey because he knew what Henry was doing, he knew what he was capable of doing and he did nothing, he saw Dorian changing and he did nothing. I believe that it's true that all it takes for evil to prevail is for a good man to do nothing and I believe that Basil was the good man doing nothing to save his friend.
1.)I believe that Dorian himself is most to blame for the tragedy that occurred. Granted, Lord Henry filled Dorian's head with new ideas and ways to live his life, however it is Dorian himself who listens to Lord Henry and decides to follow what he preached. Nobody MADE Dorian do any of those self-satisfying acts;he chose to act in that manor. Although Lord Henry influenced Dorian in a bad way, it was Dorian who decided to act upon those ideas and overall, created his own tragedy.
6.)I believe that Oscar Wilde is a much better playwright than he is a poet or a novelist. He likes to make witty comments which really only work in plays. His writing style is too sharp and quick for novels so when he tries to write, it just becomes wordy. He has a great sense of humor and his witty comments are great when inserted into a character in a play. I believe that Oscar Wilde is a much better playwright than he is a novelist or a poet.
1. Although Dorian was clearly at fault to succumb to Lord Henry's influences and allowed himself to be a pawn in many of the ridiculous philosophies Lord Henry indulged in, I agree with Martha that Dorian is not completely to blame. He began to live by those same ideas and fell further into his selfish sin, but Dorian was completely effected by those around him. Although Lord Henry had the most profound impact on him, characters such as Basil also played into his perspective and actions. Because there was such a series of events that occurred throughout the novel to lead up to the tragic ending, noone can really be completely to blame. Basil, as Martha said, was the overbearing parent whom Dorian became bored with. And Dorian's personality was one that could not deal with such difficult times and such powerful influences around him. He didn't have heroic qualities, but he was also not completely evil, and his doom was not entirely is own fault either.
6. In my opinion, Oscar Wilde is a far better playwright than novelist. Although I enjoyed Dorian Gray, his plays, especially The Importance of Being Ernest left much more of a memory for me. His talent of being witty is put into better use within a play than a novel, and in Dorian, the ending was very depressing, particularly in the last few chapters..whereas Ernest was still thought provoking, yet entertaining!
3) I believe that art reflects the artist and his environment. Therefore, art has inherent moral qualities. An example is Picasso's Guernica. A famous painting that laments the bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War. This is a praised painting even though it is far from beautiful. Art will always include some form of morality because the people painting also have some moral inclination. The second question in this point is then void because there is no choice, unless you make a robot create art. Art doesn't ave to serve a social good, that is up to the artist and him alone. The government should never censure art. This leads to government control, which leads to ignorance, which leads to suffering. History ad logic both prove that censorship of any sort is harmful.
2) I don't think That Dorian is a tragic hero because he is not inherently good. He starts out as a blank slate, an impressionable man. Since then, he just descends into more and more dark actions. And then he kills Basil, which eventually leads to his own death. However I believe his death was caused by his desire to hide what he has done, and not because some existential realization that he needs to reform. This is why he isn't a tragic hero.
6) I also believe that he is a better playwright than anything because it emphasizes his wit and forces him to use his great conversational writing only in short spurts. It restricts him from larger ideas and just focuses on his strengths. If he has complete free reign, such as in novels, he gets carried away in detail and doesn't have good plots.
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